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Below is a lightly edited, AI-generated transcript of the “First Opinion Podcast” interview with Marc Siegel and Francis Collins. Be sure to sign up for the weekly “First Opinion Podcast” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get alerts about each new episode by signing up for the “First Opinion Podcast” newsletter. And don’t forget to sign up for the First Opinion newsletter, delivered every Sunday.
Torie Bosch: Many see religion and science as opposing forces in the world. But for Marc Siegel and Francis Collins, the two are deeply entwined, with God helping guide scientists to heal. In particular, Siegel and Collins are troubled by religious communities that are increasingly skeptical of vaccines. The two of them want to help the faithful see vaccines as a miracle of God instead.
Welcome to the “First Opinion Podcast.” I’m Torie Bosch, editor of First Opinion. First Opinion is STAT’s home for big, bold ideas from health care providers, researchers, patients, and others who have something to say about medicine’s most important and interesting topics.
Today, I’m speaking with Francis Collins and Marc Siegel. Collins served as director of the National Institutes of Health for 12 years. He is the author of, among other books, “The Language of God, A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief,” published in 2006, and “The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust,” published in 2024.
Marc Siegel is senior medical analyst at Fox News, as well as clinical professor of medicine and medical director of “Dr. Radio” at NYU Langone Health. He’s also the author of the new book “The Miracles Among Us: How God’s Grace Plays a Role in Healing.”
After a quick break, I’ll bring you our conversation about faith, medicine, and science.
Frances Collins and Marc Siegel, welcome to the “First Opinion Podcast.”
Collins: Thank you. Great to be with you.
Bosch: So you have both written books about the ways that faith intersects with science and with medicine, including personally for each of you. So I’d like to start by asking you each to just say really briefly what faith means to you and your practice of medicine and science. Dr. Siegel, maybe we’ll start with you since your book just came out.
Siegel: You know, in my book, “The Miracles Among Us,” I could very well have used Francis Collins, who I’m a huge fan of, instead of Cardinal Dolan, who had a really important point at the beginning of the book, which is that faith and science don’t have to be separate, and that faith doesn’t have to weaken science, and that basically both are manifestations of God.
The reason I could have used Francis for that is because I think he was honoring the Lord the way he studied the genome. He understands how complex the genome is, and he unpacked it. One of the greatest scientists in our history. We certainly could use that now at the NIH, by the way.
But Dolan said that there are soft miracles, which are a combination of great healing from physicians and God’s will. So he said, “Why did my niece recover? It was divine providence, but also Dr. Bargenelli, a great oncologist.”
So I think that we make a mistake trying to separate them, and I think we do that going back to the days of Spinoza, who said that God is in nature. Well, God’s certainly in nature, but if you invoke a personal God, then you are more likely to honor the preciousness of each life you’re trying to save. And not only that, when you’re in medical school, when you start out in medical school, that’s what you see. I think we get too far away from the wonderment we feel at the beginning of medical school.
Bosch: Do you practice religion yourself?
Siegel: Yes, yes. When my first son was born, I was lost and I really felt very misdirected. And one day I was walking down the street and I saw a man with a prayer book. And he says to me, “Here’s my prayer book, take it and pray for the health of your newborn son,” except that I had never told this guy I had a newborn son. I felt that that was a visit, a visitation and it changed my life. So I felt directed to return to religion and to God at that point. I don’t know what he represented, whether he was an angel. When I looked back over my shoulder, he was still there though. That was so, so spooky.
Bosch: And Dr. Collins, I think a lot of listeners will be familiar with your story of faith and science, but for those who may not be, could you just tell us briefly what your relationship with faith is?
Collins: Sure. And I’m honored to be on this program with my friend Marc and to talk about this topic because I think this is something a lot of people are interested in and doesn’t get enough attention.
I got to tell you, I didn’t start out as playing any kind of useful role in science and faith discussions because I was an atheist until I was in my early 20s. I was interested in science, and I was not interested in anything outside of that and I didn’t have any real background in faith traditions. I went to medical school as an atheist and I left as a Christian because sitting at the bedside of good, honorable North Carolina people who were facing the end of their lives, I realized I hadn’t really thought through these issues about: Is there a God? And does God care about me? And is there something else that happens after you die?
I assumed there were no good answers to that. I felt I better strengthen my atheism after I got challenged by a patient to “tell me what I believed,” and realized I didn’t have an answer. And over the course of two years I began to realize that atheism was the least rational of the choices. It’s the assertion of a universal negative, which scientists are really not supposed to be able to do, and instead found the evidence for a creator God to be overwhelming from my own study of science. There it was. And I ultimately realized that this was not just a theist kind of god, it was a theist god who was calling to me to try to be good and holy, which I knew I was not. And ultimately I discovered the person of Jesus and that became the anchor of my faith and has been so now for the last 48 years.
So yeah, it’s very much integrated into everything that I think about, that I try to put into my own profession as a physician, as a scientist, reading out those letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. Very much felt like we are glimpsing God’s mind here, and we are given an incredible gift to be able to be the ones to see that for the first time.
And I wrote a book about that called “The Language of God,” which is how I see our own genome and the genomes of other species as well.
Then as NIH director, I found opportunities to try to expand our healing arts. And also an opportunity for me, anyway, to fold my faith life into that. And so especially thinking about Covid-19 when we were trying to develop a vaccine at a time where thousands of people were dying every day, I can’t tell you how much time I spent in prayer in 2020 even as I was doing everything I could to bring together all of the experts in the public and private sectors to see if we could do something that had never been done before, develop a vaccination in less than a year. And we did, and it was incredibly effective in a Phase 3 trial. And that was both an achievement of science of the highest order, but also an answer to prayer — God working through science to save lives. And it has saved maybe 3.1 million lives in the U.S. alone. All of that felt like it belonged together.
So yeah, I do practice my faith. I got up at 5 this morning. The first part of my morning was reading some parts of the book of “Romans,” which I’m at the present time going through, and thinking a little about the day and what kind of way I might approach it with God’s help to try to do whatever I can to try to contribute positively to human flourishing and recognizing I’ve been given incredible privilege to have the chance to play the role of a physician, of a scientist, of being able to lead the largest organization supporting biomedical research in the world, the NIH, for 12 years. And I want all of that to help people.
That’s I think what we were called to do through our faith, and certainly for me as a Christian, seeing how much time Jesus spent healing people, I think we were supposed to notice that.
Siegel: I would add to that a few things. I felt at the beginning of the pandemic, people were guided by God because of things that seemed completely counterintuitive, like an orthopedist working the Covid wards, looking at D-dimers and saying, “There’s a lot of blood clots, we’re seeing a lot blood clots.” Where did he get the new intuition he needed? Or the fact that we started using steroids on people in ICUs for this counterintuitively, or ECMO, which nobody used this way, or learning how to rethink respirators. All of that was visionary, and it wasn’t purely connecting the dots, and I felt it was inspired by faith.
Bosch: I’m so glad both of you mentioned Covid because I really think of Covid as being a bit of a turning point in the relationship between medicine and faith. You know, we saw so many people in 2021, 2022, saying that they believed that vaccines were anti-God. Can you talk a little bit about the ways people see vaccines as either being the work of God or the opposite of that? And how does that feel?
Collins: Well, to be honest, it’s been heartbreaking. I’m an evangelical Christian. If you looked at the group that was most likely to say no to the Covid vaccines, when they became freely available for anybody, it was white evangelical Christians. The Kaiser Family Foundation did a study to try to figure out what the consequences of that was. And between June of 2021, when anybody could get a vaccine who was looking for it, and April of 2022, just about nine months, they calculate 234,000 people died because they did not trust the vaccines, and they said no. And the majority of those were Christians.
So how could this have happened? God gave us this incredible gift of an intellect and curiosity and an opportunity to explore how nature works. And God gave us nature as well and we get the chance through science to do that. I think of science as glimpsing God’s mind. Science is almost a form of worship because what you’re trying to do there is to be completely caught up in the awe of what we’ve been given in nature’s creation and also to use that to try to help people. To have Christians be the group that was most resistant to the outcome of this really seems wrong here.
I would say there’s a couple of things that happened. One is there’s been this traditional skepticism in conservative Christians about science, a sense that science is mostly done by atheists who maybe have an agenda to try to undercut any kind of faith in God.
And then on top of that, politics has gotten so mixed up together with Christian faith and with other faith traditions. Because there was a lot of political wrangling about whether the vaccine was safe or not that found its way into church communities. Pastors were caught in a terrible place about not even being sure whether it was safe to bring up the topic of vaccines, even though most of them believed the vaccines were good and a gift from God. If they said that from the pulpit, half the church would get upset and maybe walk out.
Our churches have been so overtaken by some of the messages which are sort of the opposite of the “Sermon on the Mount” in terms of what we’re supposed to do about loving our neighbors and loving our enemies, that it became hard for good, solid public health messages to break through because those were seen as potentially elitist. And there were even pastors who fell into that trap, talked about the vaccine being the mark of the beast from the “Book of Revelation,” like this is something you should specifically avoid to save your soul. I never thought something like that could happen and then there it was.
Siegel: The tenet of both Christianity and Judaism is to fear God, not fellow man. It takes a lot of pressure off of us to be afraid of each other. We’re afraid of one thing, God. And if you accept that science is a manifestation of God in the world, like he just said, a vaccine comes from God, then why would you be afraid the vaccine? You’re afraid of God. And so, in a way, the people that are planting seeds of doubt about the vaccine — I don’t want to say they’re necessarily coming from the other place, like this is the devil’s work, but it is evil in a sense because we’re not supposed to be afraid of things like that, that science brings us, which is a manifestation of God. If God wanted us to be afraid of that vaccine that we created in his image in a sense, he creates the immune system, he creates our ability to understand the immune system. He creates our ability to use science to fine-tune the immune system to recognize a foreign invader, which is what a vaccine does.
But the misinformation, which is a word I don’t like, but the information on the other side of that is not only not accurate, which we’ve both said, but it undermines a great beauty in the world. And I said in my book, “False Alarm,” which was a much earlier book, be afraid of the virus, not the vaccine we create to protect you against it.
Collins: Marc, very well said. I totally agree with that. There’s this wonderful statement made 600 years ago by a scientist named Francis Bacon that God gave us two books, the book of God’s words, which is the Bible, and the book of God’s works, which is nature. And God is the author of both of those, and God wants us to read both of those, and God wants us to use the curiosity and the intellect that he’s given us to worship through both of those by appreciating what the creator has given us. And so if that includes the ability to do science in a rigorous way that depends on truth, then we should be grateful and celebrating that.
But that got lost in a lot of Christian conversations because of this previous history of skepticism about whether you can really trust scientists to be working in God’s plan or whether they have their own plan that’s maybe somehow based upon something other than reliable truths, which is a heartbreaking situation where distrust in science has grown steadily and particularly so in the last few years, just at the moment that science, I think, achieved its most significant breakthrough ever with the development of that vaccine, which we think saved maybe 20 million lives worldwide and yet led to a whole lot of distrust. How can that be? What’s happened to our society?
I wrote this book called “The Road to Wisdom” because I’m so frustrated about this and it has a chapter about truth because I think we’ve lost our anchor sometimes to what truth really is and some people seem willing to discount a fact that they don’t like and that’s not a good thing. And there’s a chapter about science as a means of finding truth. And yeah, science gets things wrong, but it’s self-correcting. If anything is a really important conclusion, it won’t stand if it’s wrong, because somebody else will test it and find out that doesn’t hold up. And then there’s the whole chapter about faith, because I think that’s the other way of finding truth, but a different kind of question that you ask in your faith life, like why is there something instead of nothing? And then a chapter on trust.
Marc, this is the thing that I think has maybe had the greatest consequences as our society has become more and more polarized and divided, as we’ve lost our ability to figure out what information and what sources to trust because we’re so driven by the particular tribal alliance that we’re living in that if it’s a story coming from our alliance, well, it must be true. And if it comes from other people over there, I’m not even going to pay attention. And we’re losing our chance to fill up our own portfolio of information. In a way that’s accurate. And we’re allowing a lot of stuff to get into our mindset that probably is not validated. And people of faith have been caught up in this also in heartbreaking ways. I love my fellow Christians and yet sometimes I get in a conversation and it’s hard to know where to start with all of the foundational facts that have been twisted and distorted, and a lot of anger and a lot of fear, instead of trust in God and love for your neighbor.
Siegel: Maybe this is a little off topic, but on the subject of vaccines too, the other issue we face in medicine and this is being exploited and this why I brought in that dark place or that very hot, dark place, but I brought that up because I wonder if vaccine skeptics know that people are afraid of an intervention versus an imaginary foe. We face that in medicine all the time. We tell somebody they have high blood pressure we’re going to give them a pill. But the intuition is to be afraid of the pill, but that silent killer is much worse than the pill. And the invisible killer of the virus is much worse than the vaccine, but the vaccine you can feel going into your arm. So to exploit that fear, I think is very unjust at best.
Collins: Yeah, I hadn’t quite thought of it that way, but I think you’re right, Marc. So many of the things that people have worried about in terms of consequences as a vaccine pale in comparison to consequences of the virus and all the people that it has made ill and caused to lose their lives. The vaccine as well remarkably safe and effective vaccine by any assessment of objective review. But that’s not the sense that a lot of people have because, you know, we respond to stories and you tell one story of somebody who maybe had a bad reaction from the vaccine, although it’s hard to be sure was that causation or correlation. And that has so much more impact than me spouting a lot of statistics about how safe and effective this is and how many lives were saved.
Bosch: And so I will admit to you, I’m coming from this conversation of someone who was not spiritual. I’m very open to religion, but I’ve just not experienced it myself. So I am one of the dreaded agnostics.
Collins: Not dreaded at all, not at all. I’ve been there.
Bosch: It’s curable, as you demonstrate. So from an outsider’s perspective, I sort of wonder if people experience that very human fear, but think that it’s God speaking to them, right? So you’re a little concerned about something that’s new and then you start to think, well, this is God telling me not to do it. Does that seem to be something happening?
Collins: Certainly, in my experience talking to a lot of Christians, I have had that same explanation that “I looked into this, I prayed about it, I heard some stories from some of the other people in my church, and ultimately, I felt that God was telling me, ‘God will take care of me. God will be your vaccine. You don’t need that needle.’ I’ll be fine.”
And I have to respect that, because these are people really depending on their faith. It breaks my heart, though, because I think that reflects a certain missing out on taking the facts that God has helped us to develop and looking at those too, and not making this a purely prayerful, emotional reaction. I think God wants us to look at the facts. I thinks it gives us the chance to be people who have reason and we ought to be using it. But sometimes that’s hard. You know, the metaphor that Jonathan Haidt has put forward, which I’m fond of about how our brains work, that there’s a rider and there’s an elephant. The elephant is your emotions and the part of you that’s sort of driven by passion and by spirit, and the rider is reason. And you can imagine when the elephant wants to go somewhere, the rider doesn’t have much of a chance to try to change that direction. That’s pretty real. And that’s true for me, too. Let me not sound like, “oh, I’ve got it all figured out.” We all are in this state, as David Hume said it, where reason is a slave to the passions. And we need to recognize that. And still, because we do have the opportunity to think through things, try our best not to let the elephant just run away with us when we had a chance to do a little guidance.
Bosch: Yeah, I keep thinking in these conversations about the the parable of the drowning man. I don’t know if you two are familiar with it, but you know, a man is on the roof as flood waters rise and he declines rescue by two boats and a helicopter saying, “God will rescue me.” And when he dies, he asks God, “I was waiting for you. Why didn’t you rescue me?” And God says, “I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What else did you want?” When either of you speak with people who are skeptical for religious reasons of science and vaccines, do they seem open to the idea that God is working through scientists and doctors?
Collins: I think some are. I don’t know what Marc’s experience would be. I think some are, I think, some are at such a deep level of skepticism that they would say, “Well, God might be able to do that, but science has lost its way, and science is now more aligned with the devil than with God, and so why should we trust what these scientists are telling us?” Because we know that statistics would include the fact that a lot of them don’t believe in God anymore.
Bosch: So I want to make sure we’re spending time on your book too, Dr. Siegel.
Siegel: Well, actually, my book addresses this issue Torie, because in the book, it’s animated, which is one of my favorite words, by physicians who may either be unwittingly participating in miracles, or they may not be believers themselves, but are aware that a miracle is going on. I have multiple examples in there. I’ll share a couple. Or they become believers as a result of the experience.
My favorite in the book is former CDC Director [Robert] Redfield who Francis knows extremely well, very, very religious Catholic. During the HIV epidemic he was meeting with John Paul II, with the Pope, who told him that the three main tenants for a physician to keep in mind are that there is a personal God and you have to get to know him, that prayer is our no. one tool, and that there’s a redemptive value in human suffering, which Redfield didn’t want to accept at first, but he accepted it. Because he saw it with HIV.
But anyway, Redfield was praying to God every day after his son got badly injured and wasn’t supposed to recover. And he used to have an ongoing debate with Tom Scalia, who’s the head of the [University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center] and is doing God’s work, whether he knows it or not. So Scalia says, “There’s a less than 5% chance your son is going to recover at all because he had a blown pupil and he had all of this stuff done.” So I said to Scalia, “What were the chances that he would fully recover?” And Scalia says “zero,” but he fully recovered and he’s back out on the golf course.
And Redfield tells this story about criticizing God for not giving him his full vision back. And two weeks later, his full vision comes back. And I said, “how can you criticize the Almighty?” And Redfield says, “well, but that’s my conversation with him.” So it’s a really kind of tongue-in-cheek section.
But the point is that Scalia recognizes the dichotomy there. He may be on one side of it, but yet he’s participating in the miracle. And it’s important that physicians, whether they believe or not, don’t obstruct God’s will or God’s work, that’s all.
Collins: No, I like that a lot. It reminds me of that story that Art Buchwald famously told about the woman who’s with her grandson at the beach and having a lovely time. But the waves are pretty strong and the little boy walks into the waves and is suddenly pulled by a riptide off far away, waving his arms, clearly in deep trouble. And the grandmother falls on her knees, prays to God, “please do something to save my grandson.” And it looks like it’s hopeless. And then suddenly a new wave comes along, brings the little boy with the wave and lands him right at her feet, and she says, “well, thank you, I guess, God, but you know, he had a hat.” That’s funny. So yes, we are never quite satisfied with our answers to prayer they weren’t quite the complete thing we wanted.
Siegel: And that’s what Dolan says exactly the same thing, Cardinal Dolan, that God brings us the miracles that He wants us to have. But he always sees down the road, right? So he knows the purpose of it. Indeed.
Bosch: He knew the kid didn’t need a hat.
Siegel: Yeah, why aren’t you a believer, Torie? Can we convert you today? I think Francis could convert anyone.
Bosch: That’s possible. I did want to say, Dr. Siegel, I want to mention that you wrote a related essay to your book that we published in STAT, sort of arguing that doctors are maybe too quick to dismiss miracles. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, which goes back to your point about not obstructing God’s work.
Siegel: Well you know, oddly though, I mean there’s a study that shows that 70% of doctors believe in miracles, but only about 55% would say that these miracles have been seen in their practice. And I like Scalia better, who just says, “Look, I’m open to this, but it doesn’t mean I have to be as much of a believer as Redfield is.” So I think that it also has practical implications because doctors might be too quick to write people off when that may not necessarily be our role. I mean, easing suffering is clearly our role, that would mean that there’s a role for hospice. But I’m personally uncomfortable with physician-assisted suicide because I don’t think that that’s our role.
Now, you could argue the opposite of that. You could say “God gave us the ability to do that,” but I think our role is to honor the preciousness of the human soul. And so I think that that only augments and increases our ability to practice medicine. And a nurse wrote to me, and this is germane to the essay I wrote for you. A nurse wrote me last week and said, she’s a neuro ICU nurse for many, many years. And she says when somebody comes in with head trauma, she feels there needs to be a window where we observe them for signs of recovery rather than saying, “Oh, that’s severe. The brain is damaged. They’re not gonna recover. Let’s withdraw care.” She’s been very uncomfortable with that her whole career that we’re too quick. And this is your point, Torie, that we are often too quick to not leave that window open for God’s miracle.
And I had a story that, again, didn’t make the book because I thought of this afterward. When I was a resident, I had patient that was in a deep coma from head trauma. And the family was at the bedside praying and praying and praying. And they kept coming to me because I was the intern assigned to the case saying, “His heart rate’s going up. Look, his blood pressure is going up, look, his eyelids are twittering.” And I’m like, we all came to almost be derisive about this family. “Here they are again. Look, they’re coming over to us. What do we do? We haven’t had lunch yet.” And we were so uncomfortable with this situation and with their devout prayer. And I thought, I’m gonna end up a cynic as a result of this case. It’s going to mark my training and my future as a physician. I’m going to have to repeat this over and over and again.
Except that at three months, the guy suddenly woke up and then he walks out of the hospital and goes back to work. So I learned the exact opposite lesson, to hold out hope and I became one of those physicians. And that led to this book, the faith, I feel that — let God’s will be done. And clearly not everybody’s gonna wake up from a coma, but some people will.
Collins: Marc, I really like the stories in your book. I read through quite a few of them and they do make this case really well. And they won’t necessarily convince a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic that the things that you report on were supernatural, but they certainly surprise one in terms of the outcome, whether it’s with Bob Redfield or with Brett Baier or Damar Hamlin, for heaven’s sake. So those are compelling stories. Made me go back and read something I haven’t read in about 35 years, which is C.S. Lewis’ “Little Book on Miracles.” C.S. Lewis had a big role for me in coming to faith because of his having traveled himself through the same journey of atheism to Christianity and such a sharp intellect and he always seemed to be able to anticipate my objections to what he was writing and then he would fix them on the next page. But he makes this case, which for me as a guy who’s also interested in statistics and mathematics is kind of an important one is, we all come to this question of miracles with what you might call a prior probability.
If you’re the absolute strict atheist, nothing except nature allowed, your prior probability is zero. And so no matter what you were shown in terms of a totally unexpected outcome in medicine or whatever, you’re gonna say, well, there had to be a natural explanation and why are we even talking about it? Whereas most of us are still open to the idea that miracles are possible, we vary a lot in terms of what that prior is.
And I think what Lewis says, and I kind of agree with it, the way to destroy miracles, well, there are two ways. One is to say, “They can’t possibly happen so we can’t even talk about it.” The other is to accept everyday occurrences like I prayed for that parking space and there it was, and say, “That was a miracle too.” And then you’ve so dumbed down the consequence and you’ve turned God into such a strange circumstance where you can be manipulating God for your parking area. That also I think destroys the importance in the concept.
We all mostly live somewhere in between there. For me, I gotta say my prior, it’s gonna be pretty unlikely that there is a supernatural event that I will observe. I’m not sure I ever have, although I have seen. Some remarkable things in medicine that I did not expect would happen, many of them with head injuries, but I can also, you know, be the scientist and look back and go, well, yeah, but you know there was this and there was that. So I can’t be absolutely sure. I give thanks to God anyway, and I hope that’s the right approach. But this is a topic that has vexed, I guess, believers and non-believers for a long time. But so much of the time the conversation ends before it begins because somebody has already established their prior probability.
Siegel: You know, that point about probabilities is huge, but I want to add to this that that’s why I chose the form of narrative, like C.S. Lewis, who I’m also a huge fan of in that book and all his work. But I chose that form because I want the reader to decide where they come out. And so it’s kind of like, read this story. This happened. You know, and it doesn’t matter. I had, I brought two up in this conversation of what I would consider to be otherworldly type of experiences. But I agree with Dr. Collins. It doesn’t necessarily matter. What matters is how you feel. And what’s great about a book is you can be open-minded when you read it and then draw your own conclusions.
I’m not there to say, “Read this book, you’re not gonna be an atheist anymore.” I’m just saying, read the book. I’ll tell you a point from an earlier book I wrote that’s relevant. My patient rises out of a wheelchair and confronts somebody who owes him a lot of money. And he hasn’t walked in months and months and month. And everyone said it was a fantasy. And psychiatrists were ready to put him into a psych ward because he had this fantasy and he was sure he was going to do it. He did it. And it made the front page of The New York Times. And I had to write an affidavit that he wasn’t medically fit to serve a jail sentence. He shot the guy, the guy ended up surviving. But here’s my point, and this is, I think, the same point Francis is making. If you check, you’ll find out that the hind legs, that the hamstrings, are the most inhibited by the brain. So if you get enough rage, you might be able to overcome that inhibition and walk for the first time in months. So there is a scientific explanation for that.
Bosch: I could keep talking to both of you about this for another several hours, but unfortunately I think we have to wrap up, but Marc Siegel, Francis Collins, thank you both so much for coming on the “First Opinion Podcast” today.
Siegel: It’s an honor to be on with Dr. Collins always.
Collins: Glad to be with you. It was an interesting conversation and Marc, it’s a book I hope a lot of people look at. It’s really gonna make them think.
Bosch: Thank you for listening to the “First Opinion Podcast.” It’s produced by Hyacinth Empinado. Alyssa Ambrose is the senior producer and Rick Berke is the executive producer. You can share your opinion about the show by emailing me at first.opinion at statnews.com. And please leave review or rating on whatever platform you use to get your podcasts.
This is our last show of the season, but we’ll be back in the spring. Until next time, I’m Torie Bosch, and please don’t keep your opinions to yourself.
